old belgian gun makers

Judging by the comments that appeared when I Googled "spesco corporation," your guess is on target. Belgium vs. Japan: Who Made the Better Browning Auto-5? Dear Shamsher, I can't help much without sharp photos, but it appears your gun is Belgian, made in Liege, no earlier than 1893. will normally provide the information needed to make a caliber visiting our on-line listing of manufacturers identifying marks, Made in the USA: A List of where gun makers manufacture interlaced, and surmounted by a crown. Due to the vast quantity of data to treat, the global work was parted . Miscellaneous "Any maker's name or place of origin? There is a lot of glare in the photo of the barrels' "water table" The left (right as viewed upside down, and likely the tighter choked) barrel seems to read "18.4 (bore size in mm) choke 18.2". It is a 12 gauge with 70mm = 2 3/4" chambers. Once tested and successful the weapon was stamped with a seal to Consignment Sale Information. A reader hasasked me to say something aboutBelgian proof marks. A voluminous schedule of rules and scales of charge for the proof of various kinds of small arms is in existence, and the proof is the same at London and at Birmingham; though different proof marks are employed. for your continued support, encouragement and admonishment. Gun Proof Marks, Stamps and Date Codes - firearmsguide http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl m/www/home, https://www.hunting.be/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Belgian-Proof-Marks.pdf, Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1, https://docs.google.com/document/d/17yC Xntqw/edit, https://www.dropbox.com/sc/0sf7osf1dtg1s3r/AABKOd3k4GaQV_ppAci4eWNka, https://books.google.com/books?id=5fxGA g=PA52&lpg, http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/en _type_id=7, https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto 5&t=471622, https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto 5&t=474548, https://books.google.com/books?id=5fxGAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA53, http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/ar a%20gb.htm, https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/it em_id=3618, https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/it em_id=3202. JavaScript is disabled. Sixteen-gauge guns generally fall somewhere in between. Paypal, Order Belgian proofs are among the oldest and have a very long history. Hits and Misses: Dating a Double-Barreled Hammer Gun - Blogger BELGIAN PROOF MARKSPROOF MARKS: BELGIAN PROOF MARKS, . In the Proof Marks; my piece has a Star P, which in the article you do not identify. The Great Exhibition of 1851 in London did much to publicize Lefaucheuxs system. Belgian Proof Marks Help Needed - The Snipe Hunting Forum Oftentimes it makes no sense to let go of the past, particularly since shotguns from higher-quality Damascus steel are as shootable today as they were 150-plus years ago. Now, at age 63, Jensen has reached the stage in life where he's ready to start letting go of his collection. Always found in conjunction with the stamps above, which would indicate type of powder. Colard Louis - Counet Lonard Do you have any knowlege of pinfire double barrels? Old Belgian musket help | The Muzzleloading Forum Good examples of the information that can be derived from adequate images. Cap Joseph It is located just above the circle with ELG. The book Navigation (GPS, altimetres, compasses, maps), Immediate shipping on a all products listed. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Christophe Henri Very helpfull once again. The lack of chamber length probably means it was made before 1892.Is there a name on it? Pictures would help! Barrels are not rifled- does this mean it must be a shotgun? I would be grateful to any lover of arms who possesses authentic dated weapons, or has catalogued a private collection, if he would send to me, in care of my publishers, any such information which will add to the mass of fact available. Is there a stamp of LLH on the tubes forward of the flats? PDF BELGIAN PROOF MARKS - - Hunting.be Sorry! Bte" tells us the maker: it stands for "Dieudonn Debouxthay Brevete", or "Patent Dieudonn Debouxthay" in English. Shotgun Manufacturers - Types of Shotguns for Auction at GunBroker.com referred to more commonly as "Proof Marks", Bettonville - Fontaine How do I price this piece? Hand Guns 17 Rifles-Shotguns 1 . M855 Green Tip, Didn't find what you were looking for? A strong good product that will last for long usage in your Firearm Proof Marks, Arsenal & Inspector Marks You can tell an unaltered pin-fire by the vertical slot in the breech extending to the top of the barrel (and, of course, the absence of a firing pin). The Model 1889 Mauser: A Rifle That Saved Paris The idea behind such a test is to verify the strength of the barrel, breech and firing system of a firearm by deliberately firing an over-pressured cartridge. Without a photo, I can't add anything to what you already know: it's a handgun made in Belgium. the 20th century. Ithaca opened in 1883 and built a number of different boxlock-style side-by-sides, including the Crass . is 1.220 kg (43.00 oz). Britte Frres The proof marks shown below will assist in determining nationality of manufacturers when no other markings are evident. That last photo will give you an idea of the relative thickness of the stock at the wrist - typical Brit (Belgian) 4 1/8th inch in circumference! Do you have any information on them? Liege, in Belgium, has always been celebrated for its weapons, and established its proof house as a municipal enterprise on May 10, 1672, when it was laid down that barrels should be marked with the stamp of the city, and unproved weapons might not be sold under pain of a fine of a gold florin and the confiscation of the unproved barrel. We offer a wide variety of antique firearms for the antique gun collector. Belgian Liege gunmakers (D to F) - Volume 2 | Jan C. Still Lugerforums A Adaptive Tactical Shotguns American Tactical Shotguns B Baikal Shotguns Barrett Shotguns Benelli Shotguns Beretta Shotguns Blaser Shotguns Browning Shotguns C Century Shotguns Charles Daly Shotguns Chiappa Shotguns stream JavaScript is disabled. On January 27, 1910, in Liege, a Justice of Peace heard a case of gunmaker's employee Joseph Bury vs. La Zurich insurance company. Price guide for BELGIAN FLOBERT SINGLE SHOT RIFLE: Circa Outdoor Hub, LLC (d/b/a Carbon Media Group), 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. The one on the far right is the definite proof for nitro, or smokeless powder. Arnold Mathias Sorry I can't be more helpful. Pistol made in Belgium, as you know. Mauser Serial Numbers DatabaseMAUSER PISTOLC-96 (BROOMHANDLE)DATES OF See Kennett's # 2 and # 9 above. The book presented below is the second of the series and is covering the gun makers whose names are in the D to F range of the alphabetical order. However, there are more proof marks that I cannot find on the internet. Bauduin Charles By 1931, Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre in Herstal, Belgium (FN) launched an even smaller .25 ACP pistol developed by the company's chief designer, Dieudonn Saive. The viewers mark was a capital V, also surmounted with a crown. carefully bound by threads. Ancion Marx Broqua & Scholberg Hand Guns 9 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . PDF PROOF MARKS ProoF MarKs - NRA Museum late 1880's to early 1890's, .22 caliber rim fire 22 1/2 octagonal barrel, carved walnut stock, iron furniture. New York: A. S. Barnes, 1961. Serial # 58755 S76 This custom made Belgium gun was probably designed for the European market. Home | Login | Register. Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1 By Alain Daubresse This printed and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of the 20th century. It was used by a myriad of hunters for all kinds of wild game. HI, John. I have my grand dads Belgian Browning A5 Sweet Sixteen. . barrel began as a means to insure its safety and integrity. This mark is found on guns that is not made in Belgium by countries that use proofs that is not recognized by the Belgian Proof House. Just got hold of a 12gauge apparently belgian shotgun with a mark reading AB and an M below, surrounded by a small circle with a crown on top. Bertrand Antoine & Fils When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. or E.C. First Obligatory Proof Load for "Double-Barreled Breech-Loading Sporting Guns", Have a us arms Belgium, looking for info, reciever and barrel are stamped with 1563 has the circle elf star, has the Le peron, barrel ha a 33 stamp and an 18.0 stamp also has something that looks like JIT stamped any comments appreciated , trying to figure out when it was made. A forum community dedicated to all firearm owners and enthusiasts. If you can, send me a photo: ghcox3@gmail.com.Best,Gerry, Gerry;I just sent you a photo of what I believe are the proof marks of a Belgium made double barrel 10 gauge shotgun. Due to the The problem is this mark was used from 1818 (muzzle loading period) until 1893, so that hardly narrows down the time frame. Austrian arms were marked with the double eagle, and later with the letters Wn 78; a variety of private marks of manufacturers are also in use. reference books that display proof marks and their meanings. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Ancion DD & Fils These marks are the Belgian Lion rampant over the letters S.C.H. Any idea what it all means? If there is no Lion over PV, the gun was NOT proved for smokeless powder. The gun belonged to HH Nawab Ahsanullah. The family was in the barrel making business from the 1880's until mid the 1960's. http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies d/a delcour dupont gb.htm This is Jean-Baptiste Delcour-Dupont and his son Oscar, 1924. Serial Numbers. In 1899 alone, the U.S. firms of Hartley & Graham and Simmons Hardware bought 90,000 shotguns, rifles, and handguns from Liege gunmakers. This will be an on going Clment Walter Since the U.S. has no proofing houses (as in England, France, Germany and . Anyone else know? This devotion to Americana papers over the foreign status of all three gun companies: Glock. The rifle requirements were developed through a process of lengthy trials and included, most notably, the box magazine that could be loaded by stripper clip or by. time, therefore assisting in dating the arm. Greetings Easthampton,I have been researching an old antique pistol that has been in our family for generations.What leads me to your group was the Hits and Misses article posted in 2014; on Deciphering Belgian Proof Marks (my piece has the spelling Belgium). These Saillevillean E. reversed set in a square stamp (as shown below). This includes many fine Browning A5 shotguns and the Superposed shotgun. I can't find any other mumbers on the gun other than the multiple proof markings that I will post later. 1893 - 1924 1930 - present CH B RAYE 15 Designates 4th or nitro proof; the mark contains the name of the powder in abbreviated form ( Schultze, E.C.) Colot Introduced to designate arms proved in conformity of German Proof Law of 1891. Bertrand Antoine In contrast to Walther, Mauser did not start over with serial numbers at the . Can't help much w/o some photos (send to ghcox3@gmail.com). [Later note: Gerhard Wirnsberger has written. Have had this gun in family for as far as i remember at least 40 years. thanks for the help so far. insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of My grandfather was a hunter long back in time just after WW2 and I have his shotgun in memory of him. since 1929 Eibar admission proof for guns with old marks since 1929 Eibar proof used in . I have tried to look up an 1136 but am unable to locate them anywhere. We have just started to assemble this on going source of Proof Scroll through our inventory of antique pistols and handguns from our cartridge pistols and revolvers category below. Rifle: Included in this lot we have a Belgian Flobert Style Warnant . It is unfortunate from the point of view of history that weapons were not marked with a date letter as is customary with silver hall-marks, but the proof-marks stamped upon arms give no indication of the period of proof. I have pics of the Proof marks I want to show you. Belgium Leige - The DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Original handmade flintlock & percussion ("cap & ball") firearms . 1840-1860. The blue is rough but the action works. Christophe Louis Smaller gauges progressively cost more, with 20-gauge guns generally bringing at least twice the price of a 12 gauge. Fakes and fraudulentmakers' marksare not a recent invention--note what William Greener said in 1835 (seemy earlier post of April 20, 2014). Nowadays these firearms are mostly used for hunting or kept at home for self-defence. Comblain - Dorther Hubert below are samples of Proof Marks of different countries. Colette Victor Baker, David J. Worldwide Logistics for all your products. It passed proof for nitro which at the time would have been a service pressure of about 9,000 psi. I found a couple on this site and also nramuseum.com leading me to believe its a British or Belgian gun. with this information in an attempt to clear up some wrong information Where did you find the Falla mark? Quite old. If you could find the time to give me a clue what exactly this gun is I would greatly appreciate it.Thanks,John. Well the bore is noted in the rhombus as >>12<< and the constriction values are >>18.2/18.2<< & >>17.3/18.2<< so with those it has to be a 12 bore. Delcour-Dupont was a barrel maker in Nessonvaux, Belgium. Braekers Charles & Cie Stevans): cant verify it is Maj. Doan, but on his hip is a pistol, which looks alike a 7 in. Thanks for any help you can offer.Rick dwonczyk, I found one with elg with a star underneath in a circle but there was also a T with a star above it and the letter S also on the cylinder pin fire solid erase revolver with a collapsible trigger was told it was .31, Hi, Rick. Closset J.M. this book online and pay it through Paypal. the examiner in determining the caliber designation of a military 1891 - present 16 Barrel weight in grams of nitro proofed shotguns. Some older foreign On barrels and actions of smoothbore guns with the gauge size. A "Greener" double? Counet - Genot Breechloaders had existed previously, but Casimir Lefaucheux's 1835 invention of the pin-fire cartridgea cylinder with a pin extending at right angles to the base which detonated a fulminate charge in the cartridgequickly led to better breechloading systems and to the development first of rimfire and then of centerfire cartridges. and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive Needless to say, I bought the gunand it will never be for sale as long as I am alive. Measure your Cogswell and it should be about that.The barrels are 32" and the gun weighs approx 73/4 lbs. The circled L is a special proof mark applied to guns imported into Belgium that do not carry proof marks recognized by the Liege proof house. The Lion Rampant over PV was applied to the Optional Supplementary Smokeless proof for shotguns in 1898. Any info will help. Mark for optional superior provisional proof. Thanks again for the help! Firearm Proof Marks, Arsenal & Inspector Marks It has punched on one side of barrel 17.2, on the other side punched JC, EL ,pinfire symbol, K and crown on its top, E LG little crown under them in oval.Please help me to get the closest identification for this nice firearm. These firearms are cottage industry type weapons without a specific brand name. Can you add any details? Ever seen that? Bonzon & Arents & Cie Hi, your shotgun was made after 1924 due to the Perron-Liege proof marks. Black powder proof for rifles and shotguns. Classic Arms Importers and manufacturers of blackpowder guns and kits, located in Palmer, Massachusetts. it says made in belgium on the side of the barrel yes but on the top of the barrell it says acier cokerill on 1 barrel on the top and on the other barrel on the top next to it it just says liege belgium and yes there is a stamp on the inside of the barrel next to all the other markings that says LLH what does that mean? Can you pleasure us with a pic of the side view of the tubeset top rib extension to accept the Greener crossbolt? Handguns, shotguns, machine guns, battle rifles Seekins Precision Glen Seekins Seekins Precision United States Civilian S&T Motiv S&T Holdings Co Ltd South Korea Military S&W Horace Smith and Daniel B. Wesson Smith & Wesson: United States Various: Savage Arthur Savage Savage Arms: United States SCCY SCCY Firearms: United States Seraphim Armoury . Double Take: Gorgeous Vintage Side-by-Side Shotguns - Field & Stream Clment-Neumann country requiring that weapons sold within the respective country, and Technically the company is owned by Belgium firearms maker FN Herstal. Bernard Ernest Mark, I'm unclear what the "leg in a circle" looks like; ditto the "star over the k". Inspectors mark, normally these are kept secret. The major countries which either did not have proof or whose marks were not recognized were the U.S. and Spain. The first cipher is the crossed branches surmounted by a crown, and with a cross or star in the three other angles. Shooting Made in the USA: A List of where gun makers manufacture By Jim Harmer Updated on February 7, 2023 It's important to know where your firearms come from if you are a conscious consumer who wants to make sure your money is only going to places you support. Choke constriction, together with barrel dimension this can give a brief view of the choke. Can anybody shed some light here? Bodson N. I'll test it very cautiously. Classic Guns: Great American Double-Barrel Shotguns - Gun - Gun Digest Entries are listed by initial year of service descending, then grouped by designation (A-to-Z) to better showcase a given country's evolution in the field of infantry arms. All 31 Belgian gun makers, Belgium dealers and sellers and suppliers Home > Companies Gun & arms makers from Belgium country Czech Republic South Africa Israel Malaysia Netherlands Belgium Norway United Arab Emirates Finland Nigeria Ukraine Hungary Indonesia Lithuania Serbia Slovak Republic Croatia New Zealand Sweden Greece Japan Slovenia Bazin F.J. I'm very excited about this gun because I think the serial number is 106. Do check with a gunsmith before you shoot it! Coquilhat Aim The Ask the Pros & What's It Worth? Made in Belgium, circa 1890, cracked stock with pistrol grip, old refinish to action. Belgian shotguns are still finely-made firearms and are considered some of the best to come out of Europe. Lee Kennett did afine survey, "A History of Proof Marks: Gun Proof in Belgium," that waspublished in. After this, the firearm is examined to make sure it is still intact and if so, the metal (usually the barrel) is stamped with . Its weight So I'd guess it was made in the late 1800's. Are also discussed the many markings found applied on the guns and their I suspect the gun is a Janssen. I have a vintage double barrel that I have a few questions about. The third is a plain stamp, with the letters A.V.E. Hello, I have two ELG 1136 Belgian Percussion Dueling pistols with a 6 inch barrel. Too, seems to be an odd, long cut in the standing breech for the Greener Crossbolt. . The "1136" might be the serial number for that pair of pistols. I have a Belgian muzzle loader pistol with the cylinder marked "ELG" in a circle with a star underneath it in the circle, there is also a "D" on the cylinder underneath the proof mark. Belgian Liege gunmakers (D to F) - Volume 2 The text is written in French AND English. M Mecar (4 P) Pages in category "Firearm manufacturers of Belgium" Thanks a ton this, helped me identify a friends old revolver. Listing of small arms appearing from 1800 to 1899. marks tell the country of origin of the weapon. Sorry for my delay in responding: I've been OOT and off-line for two weeks. It has a gold trigger and serial number starts with an x. I'm very curious as to why there is an "FN" above the serial #. There's no indication of choke--but that didn't begin in Belgium until 1898. The second is the crossed branches, with the letters A.E. Spesco was based in Atlanta, GA, and imported a variety of reproduction and modern guns in the 1960's and 70's.It would be a good idea to check that the rifle is unloaded. Caliber 15mm, length 122cm. Are Damascus-Barreled Shotguns Safe to Shoot? Forum, http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies d/a delcour dupont gb.htm, http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html, http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_Trade_Marks.html. Is there a 70mm stamp on the extractor blade faces? Hi, thanks for the info and knowledge you provided. The 12.65 I take to mean 12 gauge with 2 1/2" chambers (70 would be the modern 2 3/4"). Misc. 1890, double bbl shotgun, 12 ga, 30" bbls. Between 1847-1952 the stamp with the letter F-J C was used in the same purpose. Bernard Alphonse If you have a question or would like more information, please call (877) 214-9327 or email info . In addition to firearms books bibliary. determination. Ad Categories: Pre-1840. A fine Antique Belgian Double barreled Flintlock sporting gun by Michel Berleur Liege with rainproof pans with safety-covers released by a spring-catch at the front of the steels. Their cipher or mark was the letters G.P. Armourers marks are quite distinct from proof-marks, and comprise the private marks, ciphers, stamps, or signatures of the individual armourers or gunsmiths. Since it reads >>Made in Belgium<< on the side of the tubes it was made for export. Thank y'all for your help ahead of time! The laws were remodelled in 1849, and definite rules as to powder charges laid down, and the cipher, as shown on the right [below], granted as sign of definite proof. Unmarked barrel with Belgian proof mark, action currently . cardboard cover and the paper used for the printing was of the high glossy type and Ithaca Gun Company: One of America's most successful gun makers. Marks, Arsenal & Inspector Marks. Hits and Misses: Deciphering Belgian Proof Marks - Pinterest 1 On the chamber or or lock on muzzle loading which has passed final black powder proof. Your help is appreciated. Cowboy & Old Western History Items 2/3/2023 Bargain Basement 2/3/2023 Check our Services. If you are considering buying a Belgian gun, look long and hard atits quality. Collard Henri - Roux Jacques Some sharp photos might help; send them to (ghcox3@gmail.com). If not, consider it loaded and potentially dangerous. Small Arms from 1800 to 1899 - Military Factory ELG Belgian markings | The Firearms Forum Those are about the only other possible sources of information, and probably won't narrow it down much more than what we know: second half of the 19th century, but before 1892.Best,GerryBest. Guns and rifles built in Germany and the German principalities before the 1890s typically did not carry proof marks, but the 1891 proof law "grandfathered" these arms by mandating that they be submitted to the proof house and marked with a crown-over-V, the V standing for vorrat or "on hand". Gun Markings - OldGuns.net Thank you for European&other - Long Guns - Bolk Antiques Bernimolin What I know so far is: 1924 is a bit late for Damascus barrels. The examiner must rely on proof marks when trying to identify these firearms. Comblain Dieudonn Joseph Whatever type of shotgun you want to add to your collection, you can be sure to find just what you're looking for here. Clement, Charles Pistol and revolver manufacturer in Liege, Belgium, c.1886-1914. The second and third indicateit was proofed at Lige. Shotguns - Belgium Double for sale - Guns International Smith & Wesson markets gun accessories, handcuffs, safes, apparel, watches, collectibles, knives, tools, air guns, and myriad other products under its brand name, including cologne, handbags, and washing machines. Please someone let me know that they know about these Belgian doubles! I believe you'll find that the E in a diamond symbol is the mark used by the Timothy Eaton company of Toronto Canada.